31. Why "Passing Code" Doesn't Mean Your Home or Rental Is Healthy

If you've ever been told your labs are "normal" while you still feel exhausted, foggy, or sick in ways no one can explain, you already know how little "normal" actually promises. It turns out the same is true for the buildings we live in.

Why this episode matters

For anyone managing chronic illness, especially mold sensitivity, MCAS, or unexplained fatigue, your environment is often an overlooked piece of the root-cause puzzle. In this conversation, Dr. Mark Su talks with real estate developer Lou Minicucci of Minco Development Corp, along with recurring co-host Mike Schrantz, IEP, about what actually separates a building that just passes code from one that's genuinely built for health.

What you'll learn

• Why meeting building code is a bare minimum standard, not a health standard, and how that mirrors the gap between a "normal" lab result and an optimal one
• What FITWEL and LEED certifications actually measure, and why most buildings never pursue them
• How lumber is inspected for mold before construction even begins, and why that detail matters more than most people realize
• Why low VOC materials matter cumulatively, even when every individual product is technically "compliant"
• The role of MERV filtration, ERV fresh air systems, and central water heating in reducing everyday exposure
• Practical questions you can ask about your own living space, whether you're moving, renting, or staying exactly where you are

Key moments

• Lou's walk-through of the FITWEL and LEED certification process behind Newburyport Crossing
• The mold inspection process during construction, and why it's so rarely done
• Dr. Su's "normal lab value" analogy applied to building standards
• Mike Schrantz's real-world perspective from working with chronic illness clients who are actively searching for a safer place to live
• Practical, no-pressure guidance for anyone who can't move or renovate right now

Dr. Su's perspective

Dr. Su has long said that healing happens on more than one front. This conversation is a reminder that the air you breathe and the space you live in are part of your health story, not separate from it. You don't need a fully certified building to make progress. Small, informed steps matter.

A note on progress over perfection

This episode isn't about needing a perfect home before you can get better. It's about understanding what's possible, what matters most, and where a person can realistically start.

Curious whether your environment could be part of your own root-cause puzzle? Grab your free Lab Results Guide, or bring your questions to Dr. Su's monthly Ask Dr. Mark session, real questions, real answers, real direction.

Get your free Lab Results Guide: Download at rootseekhealth.com/labs/

Have a question for Dr. Su? Once a month, Dr. Su opens one hour to five people only. Real questions, real answers, real direction. 

Book your spot: rootseekhealth.com/askdrmark

Connect with Dr. Su: rootseekhealth.com | @rootseekhealth

Links:

• Minco Development Corp: mincocorp.com
• Mike Schrantz's podcast: iepradio.com
• Mike Schrantz's consulting: environmentalanalytics.net

Guest bio: Lou Minicucci is a real estate developer with over 50 years of experience and the founder of Minco Development Corp. He's the developer behind Newburyport Crossing, a FITWEL and LEED certified residential community, and a Harvard Graduate School of Design alumnus known for his community involvement across the North Shore of Massachusetts.

Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only.  Information discussed is not intended for diagnosis, curing, or prevention of any disease and is not intended to replace advice given by a licensed healthcare practitioner. This podcast and its guests may have direct or indirect financial interests associated with products mentioned.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Dr. Mark Su 0:09

I'm Dr. Mark2 and welcome to the Functional Medical Reality Podcast. Join me and our community weekly as we bring you unfiltered health from information to longevity, real stories, real people, real solutions, experience real life health changes from both patients and practitioners, and learn how to turn cutting-edge information into real results in your own life so you can feel better, live longer, live healthier, and be confident and clear in your healthcare choices. Let's get real and get results. Welcome folks to uh Functional Medicine Reality Podcast. Once again, I'm your co-host, Dr. Mark Sue. I'm here once again with Mike Trantz, IEP Extraordinaire, Doctor of Homes. And we are joined today by a special guest, an individual in my local community here in Massachusetts. His name is Lou Minicucci. And so we want to go ahead and just jump right in. I'm going to introduce Lou a little bit and then we're going to talk about why we're having this conversation all together, the origins of that conversation, and some of the uh really fantastic things that Lou's done, past and present, in the local communities and specific to building health and his passions around building health as a uh developer and I don't know, dare I say real estate mogul? I almost want to say that, Lou, but I I don't want to create so overly self-consciousness there. Mogul is a pretty strong word. So so yeah, Lou, I'm just gonna briefly introduce you and feel free to you know color it in a little bit more. But uh so Lou and I have gotten to know each other in the communities over the last uh over 10 years now. I think it's close to maybe 12 years or so. Um I will say unashamedly, he was one of the co-owners of the building that our brick and mortar primary care office exists in, uh is still housed within. Got to know him really well, had a uh just great relationship with him and his um partners before they uh sold the building eventually. But uh Lou has an MBA. He his career is historically in real estate. He's developed a lot of multifamily houses. He's done work in the legal departments with uh in the jury legal jurisdictions on multiple levels. I think local, even federal levels, I believe, Lou, right? Yeah, and he's he's built a lot of commercial uh retail centers, like stop and shop and CVS type plazas. He's worked, they've built buildings, homes, etc., in both Massachusetts, Florida, possibly in other states. I just know about those two. And I know you're an alumnus of the Harvard Graduate School of Design, right? And you've got you've had multiple interactions. Even in recent years, you've had some ongoing interface and mentorship in the in the in the Harvard program to my recall. I know you've done a lot of community service work, the Boys and Girls Club, the YMCA. You've you've had a recent spotlight in the local newspaper with your grant funding for student athletes in the local communities. I I the way I said to my wife recently was pretty sure if he wanted to, he could just ask for the it for the key, this the keys to the cities. Like, you know, those, I don't know, the guy, you know, those it's almost like being the mayor of the city, sort of like colloquially, like be you have the keys to the cities in at least Andover, North Andover, and perhaps Newport areas as well. You just the more I've gotten to know you over the years, the more I'm just really beyond impressed. Uh, and it's not just impressed on paper. Your your heart and your life mission and your your your passions are very evident, and and yet you're extremely humble about it all and just uh just a real grounded and soul of the earth kind of person. So some of this today was I wanted to give the opportunity to just uh throw some love your way, throw some flowers your way, give you all kinds of credit and kudos. But but you have a lot, you you obviously have a lot to offer

The Longevity Program Meets Housing

Dr. Mark Su 3:50

this world, our local communities and beyond, and that's a lot of why we're here. So welcome, Lou, on behalf of Mike and I. Welcome to the the podcast and thanks for joining us. Thank you. And uh thank you for those very kind words.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah, it's not uh it's it's almost embarrassing, but again, thank you.

Dr. Mark Su 4:07

It's well deserved. It's yeah, very, very warranted for sure. I wanted to just set this tone and just as we just dive in here. So the the origins of this conversation, why I propose we have this conversation all together, is if just hearkening us back. Lou, uh a few weeks ago, I don't know, let's call it three weeks ago, um, from the day of this of this recording, we have locally this brick and mortar longevity clinic that some colleagues and I have started. And you raised the question to me uh a little over a month and a half ago, initially by email or text, that you have these residential apartment complexes, which I know very well. I I drive by them a lot. They're right in town here, right by the train station here in North Shore, Massachusetts. And you said, Hey, we've we've got gyms in there and you've got this longevity program. What's the possibility of bringing some of that longevity programming into the apartment complexes? So we started that conversation, then we it evolved into us having an in-person conversation roughly three weeks ago with some of your team, some of our team. And as you started explaining, as I started asking you, like, what's the purpose behind this? What's your intention? And sure, yes, you said, yes, it can help us differentiate ourselves as a as a brand, as a as a desirable residential location for potential tenants. But you went on and extended, and more meaningfully for me, you said it just it just fits our identity or brand, my words, not yours. And you start talking about all these amazing pieces that you've talked about with being before in more in passing, but I was just amazed at all uh impressed by all the all the features and certifications and more so the the intention and heart behind uh what you've accomplished in the building of the I'll say the Newport Crossings apartment complexes, and you have more going up, both in Newport and North Andover. And yet, amidst beyond it all, you are you are at a life stage, professionally and personally, where from my point of view, you don't need to be working. You don't need you didn't need to be working many, many years ago, and yet you still do. And I asked you this recently, like, why do you why do you keep doing this? And you're you just have that passion and you and not just for what you do with the building constructions and creations, but the impact it has on the communities and the just affecting lives and affecting society. So that's what I want to just lead into and just give you the mic here and and ask you if you can just start out perhaps by just reviewing for us a little bit about let's just use New Burport Crossings as the illustration first. Tell us a little bit about those two apartment complexes. Why did you build them? Why did you put all the effort and work that you put into them? What are some of those details in there that make it such a healthier building for the residents? And I know this by experience. Before you even told me this, I have a patient who's had meaningful, meaningful mold sensitivity, among other chronic complex issues. And she's the one who told me, like, do you know about this and this and this about that building? And I was like, I knew that you created that. And I said, I had no idea. It's it's top line. It would be magical if I got in there. And she did. And she's so thankful and happy. And she is so, it's been life-changing for her, just as uh if I'd never told you before. So let me let me leave the mic for you. Why don't you tell us a little bit about those buildings to start with?

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Okay, sure. Uh report crossing is uh currently right now 160 of residential apartment units, and we're in the process uh we have designed and improved and actually ready to break ground on an additional 92, so we'll have 252 um uh

Newport Crossings And Smart Growth

SPEAKER_02 7:30

residential apartments. When we started the planning stage for all of this, we uh we developed it under the zoning which is commonly called the smart growth in Massachusetts, meaning that you want to locate only convenient to public transportation, convenient to downtown, where walkability is uh is uh a potential. And so to prevent urban sprawl. So if you can find a site that's near a trade station or downtown or near public transportation, then you're not and do it in a fashion that's fairly dense, then you're preventing urban sprawl, which is kind of a goal of the state. So we developed that we were the one of the first pioneers to use the 40R zoning here in Massachusetts to develop uh our our project. When we looked at uh smart growth and and looked at the advantages of that, we also looked at other certifications or other available programs that could be incorporated into the design. One of them was FitWell certification, and another is a lead certification.

Dr. Mark Su 9:01

I'm sorry, okay, Fitwell certification and what's the other one? Lead lead. Okay. And Mike, are you familiar with I think Mike, you're already familiar with one or both of those?

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, LEED, and more recently, FitWell. I know it's been around for uh a minute, but uh Luz probably knows a lot more about the the intricacies between the two. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

Yeah, so so Fitwell uh was started by the CDC and uh in conjunction with the GSA, Government Services Administration, and the CDC to try to promote healthy, healthy living environments. And uh they no longer run it, they still have the rights to the name, but it's ran under another organization. At any rate, they have uh they have uh care uh guidelines by which you can uh follow and then receive a certification or and and it's really to promote um, you know, it's it's have a positive impact on healthy living within a community. Um and you know, all of that is an attempt to reduce absenteeism and uh support social, they also have other goals to support social equity. Um so we we looked at that and thought that that would be a good goal to try to accomplish. Um since one of the main criteria is location and walkability, so and public transportation, which we we met uh uh you know immediately. But there are other things within the building and they're talking about building access to make the building safe to uh for accessibility to the exterior, um to improve the indoor environment, air quality environment, which we've done, to provide well-lit and convenient stairwells to encourage people to climb stairs. For example, our building is a five-story building, we do have an elevator, but our goal is to to encourage people to use the stairwells. We have defibrillators, we install gyms, have resources where people or tenants have ready availability to refill water bottles, not of plastic, but uh hopefully a bottle similar to a Yeti to encourage uh hydration and to give them access to good quality water. We have air exchanges, ERVs, which Mike I'm sure is familiar with, and we increase the I'm impressed that you're even using that, but yeah, go for it, Lou. I don't know.

Dr. Mark Su 11:35

Some uh what is ERV?

SPEAKER_02 11:36

It's the transfer of bringing in fresh air and uh exchange, right? Yeah, exchange, right. And so we have mer we have uh high level of um filtration. So typically your filters are are measured on a MERV system, anywhere from a seven to I think a 16. We're at a MERV 14, the higher the better. Most at a MERV 14, we tend to get most of the bacteria and um other, you know, pollen and things of that nature, which are MERV seven, which you might find in a typical apartment building does not have, assuming they even have an ERB quality. So our emphasis is on trying to incorporate healthy standards within our building. We're conscious of that. And it is a checklist of about 200 items. It gets down actually to the shades that you put into the bedroom have to provide for a certain elimination of natural light that comes through in the at night, because they say the darker your room, the better quality of sleep you have. So that really can be a reflection of the shades that you might have. That you that you do everything that you can to prevent uh people from bringing in contaminants on their feet. So you have to have walk-off mats, and the walk-off mats have to be of a certain length. So you can't have a two-foot walk-off mat, you have to have a ten-foot walk-off mat. So it gets down to these minor details that typically somebody living in these apartment uh living in the units would not recognize or even know or understand. And so we've incorporated many or nearly all of these in, and they get into building material. So from the very beginning, when we start building our buildings, which you rarely ever see, we do an inspection for mold because a lot of times the lumber will come in with the with mold with lumber yard mold on them. And then also during the construction process. So depending on when you build it, buildings are left to the weather two, three months, and there's rainy, depending on what rain you get, and whether they dried out or not. So as soon as our building gets to a weather tight seal, we then go in and we do a total mold inspection and we cut out anything that may have mold on it. We clean when we can and we cut out where we think is necessary. We hire an independent company to come in and do it. They spray the microbial material on the lumber that we know that we pre-treat it to prevent moles. From day one, we start the process. We use products that have low BOC products because in and of themselves, any product that you buy is going to be compliant, compliant with federal standards. So if you buy a rug or you buy uh um

Fitwel Standards For Daily Health

SPEAKER_02 14:41

you know gypsum, most items that you buy will have a certain amount of VOC limits to them. Some products.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Just for people who aren't familiar, uh Mike, you want to give a quick definition of VOCs? Volatile organic compounds, off-gassing of products at room temperature. And so what Lou's talk talking about is the difference between a federal standard, which has some regulations on the limits of how much, say, for example, a building material can off-gas. And what I'm thinking Lou is telling us is that he goes beyond that and tries the things that have a much lower signature, all to go towards a better in total indoor air quality.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

You're exactly right, because every product can have a variation. You can buy a wood product, a certain, say, laminate floor, it could be at the upper limit of the federal regulation, or you can buy one at the very lowest limit. So, in and of themselves, all the products would could be compliant. But when you put them all together in a building, so if you take the off-gassing of potential paint, rocks, flooring, if you get if you're not conscious of what you're doing, you may you will have higher off-gassing that may be occurring. We attempt to mitigate that. All our products are spec at low DOC so that the cumulative effect uh would is is uh as low as we can uh keep it.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

So, Lou, I got a question for you real quick, and I don't mean to interrupt. Are you using the fit well model to help guide you through this process? Because it's a lot of work what you're doing. People don't realize we're not talking about a 400 square foot, one apartment. You're talking about a large building, and all the things that you are talking about doing are so rare, at least, at least talking to the person that helps make those decisions. It's very rare to hear the level of detail that you take it to. You are a fantasy to many of the patients I work with.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Well, you know, I obviously I can't take all the credit for doing it. We hire a third-party expert that is proficient in this area who does nothing but certification. So they have to be pre-qualified. And they get into the details. So they investigate all our rug samples, all of our gypsum samples, uh, all our wood product samples, our paint samples. So we before we install anything, we run that product by an expert who reviews the spec sheets on them and makes a determination if it's going to be appropriate or not.

Dr. Mark Su 17:13

And so going back to Mike's first question there, Lou, uh, is this guided by the Fitwell program at the endpoint?

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Well, Fitwell has standards and uh uh that were developed. I honestly can't tell you the process. That's a scoring mechanism that you get a certain amount of points for doing certain things. And you may not be able to accomplish everything within their guidelines, but you need to get to a certain percentage. And that's the same with lead certification. So we're also in that the uh new report crossing that we're talking about, we also have a lead certification. And and that that addresses environmental concerns as well. Not so much it does translate into quality of living, but it talks about the greater environment. So they talk about sourcing materials that are local so that you're not importing lumber from Arkansas to Massachusetts, it'd be better to get it from Maine to Massachusetts to prevent the amount of travel on the roads uh for for trucking. To use products that can be recycled. So they're thinking down the road 60 or 70, 80 years when this building becomes obsolete, are the products that you're using, can they be recycled well into the future? Reaganification also talks about energy conservation. What what what level are you accomplishing in your building envelope to to gain a high level of building efficiency?

SPEAKER_01 18:46

So Did you say lead? LEAD, yes. Okay. Right. And so for those who don't know, lead and fit well, big picture, w what are these programs as it relates to building commercial buildings?

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Well, I mean, there is certification that provides guidelines, guidance, if you will, and uh there are agencies, uh there are both agencies that will give you a certification that you've been compliant with their guidelines, which tend to be a much higher standard than typical building codes. So the building code doesn't really address a lot of the units, a lot of the issues that are in Fitwell. They don't care, they don't require you to have a gym. They don't require you to post a sign to say climb the stairs, it's health, it's it's healthier. They don't require you to have shade darkening shades in bedrooms. So that is not a building code issue. That is a fitwell issue that and the assumption is that fitwell, this is what they do. They research and they they keep refining their standards. So the more compliant you can be with their standards, the healthier your building. And with lead certification, the more environmentally friendly you are. So one example that I tell people and that an R factor on a sidewall for insulation value in Massachusetts is an R21, which is a fairly high standard, meets the stretch code. In our building, when a lead certification and pass the power certification that we're going for, we have an R49, so it's more than twice what the building code requires.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

And that obviously gives the benefit of comfort and lower utility bills and things of that nature. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yes. I mean we're nearly at New Great Port Crossing. We're not there. You know, uh we would have uh we're at net carbon zero once we install our solar panels on our building. A combination of the we have triple pane windows, we have double the insulation generally required. We take a lot of pains and efforts to seal all voids within the building, so we have virtually no air pen no air penetration, but we have air exchangers that take out air, recirculates it, and captures the heat or cooling and and redistributes it back into the unit along with fresh air.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Lou, I've heard you mention Lou and sorry, Lou, I've heard you mention lead and fit well. Seems like big picture. What we're hearing is that with fitwell, it's really more about longevity of good health of the individual, where not that there's not any overlap, whereas lead is more of an energy focus, what's your carbon footprint and and things of that nature? But I've also heard you talking about it that maybe the layperson wouldn't know. Are you using both of these programs at the same time on the same building, or do you pick or choose one or the other?

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Well, you can pick or choose or use both.

Dr. Mark Su 21:48

We've we've They're certifications that they've just met. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, you're just saying these are just uh these are just standards and certifications that you've obtained or uh you've met the standards to meet to get those certifications, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Yeah. We chose at the onset during the design phase, because it is complicated, you can't do it on a fly. You have to have built in many of these energy conservation items with and other items. For example, you'd have to create a space for a gym. So you need to know that before you begin the construction on the building. And so we make it Decision. Do you follow the stretch code in Massachusetts Massachusetts? Or do you use a passive house?

SPEAKER_01 22:27

And Lou, are you saying stretch like I'm stretching?

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Yeah, stretch code. I don't I think it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Is that like more of a building minimum?

SPEAKER_02 22:36

There's the National Building Code, which many states would default to.

LEED And Building For Efficiency

Dr. Mark Su 22:42

Hold on a second. We can't hear you.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

So if a state doesn't have a building code of in and of the of their own, or a local city or town doesn't have a building code, most of them default to the National Building Code. Then Massachusetts has adapted or has provided cities and towns within Massachusetts the opportunity to develop or adopt a higher standard than the National Building Code, which is not called the Stretch Code. Then from there, you can go to certifications like lead certification or Bitwell certification and even passive house certification.

Dr. Mark Su 23:22

So the way the way I the way I think about this, this is like this is synonymous with people talking about their lab results. And like, well, is it normal? But how helpful is normal when a lot of times normal is like, it just means you won't have rickets. I mean it just means you won't have disease, right? Versus mid-range normal or optimal, right? It's kind of like the same idea here, except we're talking about standards for a building as opposed to like a lab value for a hormone or a vitamin level or something like that, right? Yeah. Certainly, it certainly feels that way. Do you want to live like at the bare minimum or do you want to be optimal?

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Well, and let me let me ask Lou, speaking of levels, even within whether you're you're meet a meet a certification that's Fitwell or LEED, then there's levels or certifications with that. I remember with LEED, there was like silver, gold. I don't know if there's platinum. I don't know if you can ever make a double platinum. Um, but then I know with Fitwell, there's there's other levels. I think it's star. I I I don't pretend to understand it. First of all, you can you explain to the audience these uh certification levels and why one person would choose the bottom level, basic certification versus the top one.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Well, uh uh I mean it's cost for that. I think that every time you layer in a certification, you layer in cost. So you have to hire an independent expert, which hatch cost, and then they bring to the table all of these more expensive things to do. You know, for example, it's you know, it's it's less expensive not to have a gym in your building. Because if you have a gym, then you have to build a square footage for the gym, you have to equip the gym equip at the gym, and then you have to go have ongoing maintenance of the gym. And now you need a third-party person to certify that the gym is compliant. The considerations on the on all of this I think is driven by cost. Everybody would prefer a higher quality building. It's just a matter of what does the cost is the cost justification warranted in a given market.

Dr. Mark Su 25:28

Yeah, that's a that's a great that's a great segue into other thoughts I had here, Lou, because I mean you didn't even mention the you know, I I'd love for you to just briefly mention the the feature functionality you guys have for pet water outside the building, as well as like the pet the the pet bath station you have on the ground floor. And then most importantly, I remember when you walking us through it, the uh the w the heating system you have in the buildings, right? The how you design how those those heating the um the water heaters are designed in in yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah, well, I mean, I guess it's part of and this is not a requirement of Fitwell, but people do get a lot of compet owning pets. And you know, it wasn't too long ago that many apartment complexes, and there still are, that don't allow pets. We do allow pets. We have probably if you listen to my maintenance informant, he's suggesting that we have 75% of the people have pets in our building. I'm not sure if it's quite that high, but it's well in excess of 50%. So we provide a dog walking, uh dog washing station within our building. And we have air an outdoor area for dogs to be walked, as well as uh a drinking fountain for the dogs. So it's obviously at a lower level.

Dr. Mark Su 26:45

But you know, that's probably a very tell us more. The water system, the water basin or whatever it is for the pets is is uh tell us about that. Just just go one more level deeper. Well it's not just it's not just a couple, it's not just a bunch of doggy bowls sitting out there with water.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

Right, because I think studies show that that's drinking dogs drinking on common bowls are not healthy. There could be they could there's problems with that. So we have a stainless steel little dish or basin with a drain, and people are have an ability to pour fresh water into that. They press a button, fresh water goes in, the dog laps it up, and what isn't used is drains out. So it's it's important to keep it's important to keep it.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

The dogs are getting better treatment than some of our public schools.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Okay, keep going, Luke. Yes, absolutely. Well, yeah, you know, I mean, uh Mark, I know you're in the medical, but there's also you know, uh psychological benefits, healthy benefits, right?

Dr. Mark Su 27:47

So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Yeah, so keep the dogs healthy, keeps the tenant resident happy because of their dog, and that's all important.

Dr. Mark Su 27:57

And and the water the water heating system, I remember you showed up. It was all in one unit down below as opposed to each unit having their own water heating system. And I was just sitting there going, like, why do you do that? And then you explained it. And I said, Well, how come everybody doesn't do that? And you explained that too. Tell us uh just briefly about that.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Well, we uh we we have a central plant for heating hot water. So for example, typically in a residential apartment building, you have 160 units, you have 160 individual hot water tanks. We have basically three in the basement that is uh can very efficiently be heated and then circulated throughout the building. Everybody's guaranteed hot water within 10 seconds, and that's also an important lead requirement because if you have to run your faucet for 30 seconds or a minute to get hot water, you're wasting water, precious water. So we have a circulation system and an efficient central plant that heats the hot water, distributes it throughout the building, can give residents an immediate uh access to hot water more efficiently without wasting it.

Mold Prevention During Construction

SPEAKER_02 29:01

So that's just one of the aspects. That would be a lead requirement, not necessarily a FIP law requirement.

Dr. Mark Su 29:07

Yeah, and bringing that back, so a few just a couple minutes ago, you said, you know, it's a cost issue, right? When Mike asked you about different certification levels and and you said, yeah, it's a cost issue, obviously, because hey, look, you know, as my brother-in-law likes to say, like greens, the green stuff makes the world go around, right? And decisions are understandably made on money. So when I asked you about the water heaters, and I said, well, that just makes sense. How come all buildings don't do? And you said, well, it's more expensive to build, right? And so that's where in my head I go back to saying, like, you you told me you guys spent X amount more money to build this than you needed to because you cared about these matters, right? And I that's just the part that strikes me is okay, you don't need to be doing this. You don't need to be working, and from my per perspective, I don't know that you need to be working, period. Uh but you do and you care. And then you put all this extra stress and effort and money into building this building. And so I kind of go back to like, yeah, what is it that drives you about doing now that?

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Yeah, I guess I haven't really thought about it in that realm, but it the the construction process in the years that I've been doing this, and it's now 52 years, has evolved. And I guess if you're a true professional, or this is something that I have a passion for, you always want to do I I guess I don't want to say necessarily the biggest, but you always want to do the best. And so I've evolved over the years. I'm intrigued by by these evolutionary processes in the building construction trade. And assuming that it is financially feasible to do, which it isn't always, but in this case in Newgateport it has been. I enjoy the challenge and it's the right thing to do. And I think in the long term, it's pro it's better off for everybody. It's better off for the resident, it's better off for the community, it's better off for the developers. Uh, Newgreep Port Crossing, by the way, has one other component. We talk about equity. We have 25% of the units are set aside and for affordable resident, for affordability component. So our rents on the affordable side is about 20 odd percent less than the market rate. And this gives individuals who are just starting out, sometimes first-time teachers, firemen, or young professionals. We are providing an opportunity for them in our affordable housing aspects of this project. So that's one other thing that we offer. It makes it slightly more challenging to offset that loss of income, rental income, and incorporate all of the environmental advances that we've been talking about. But we've so far managed in New Great Point to do so.

Dr. Mark Su 31:45

It's yeah, it's just it's just yeah, thanks for reviewing all that. It's um, you know, if it's okay with you for a second here, Lou, I'd love to kind of like turn the attention to Mike a little bit and just ask for some, you know, this is raw, unscripted, right, just feedback on how I'm just curious. When I'm listening to this stuff from Lou, and some of this is some of the things he just mentioned here are even new to me from last time he and I chatted about this, but where how does this kind of description stand from your purview? You've kind of hinted at it a little bit already, saying, like, hey, it's really rare that someone in the decision-making level, much less the originator guy, is thinking on this level, and then uh my words here like understands it. Yeah, he could have just outsourced it to a third party, as he said, and just said, hey, just tell us what to do. But he like, he knows, he knows what he's it sounds like he knows what he's talking about on some level, from what I gathered from views.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Proofs in the doggy basin. I mean, I mean, I I joke, but uh what when I first started doing, so my background, real quick, 30 seconds is I started with residential HVAC, learned the fundamentals, uh, AutoCAD, uh, brought that into the company, figured things out, but it was that was it. And then I did indoor air quality. And when I started doing indoor air quality, it was everything under the sun, chemicals, particulates, uh, mold, you know, radon, that sort of thing. And then I started working for apartments and and in particular government-assisted apartments for people who had limit, you know, limited income and all that. And that was the only the irony of that was that was the only reason I got to work for apartments because there was money from the from the management company to pay for people like me to make sure that they had a water leak behind the shower. Where I'm going with this is that even when I was around that, it was always the minimum, right? That's the bottom. It's a volume-based business, it's not a quality, quality-based business. And so you're not gonna have the doggy bowl basin at the bottom that you flush out and purge. You're not gonna have an efficient uh commercial water heater that can deliver hot water in 10 seconds or less to conserve water. You're certainly not gonna have a mechanical ventilation device, and you're certainly not gonna be touting MER 14 filters. Everything about what Lou's talking about, I'm not saying that there's not other, I and Lou would know he knows his competition, he knows who's in the market, that there's not other people doing it, but it's even beyond the certification. It's like I hear what he's saying uh with the fit well and the lead. These are great programs for anybody listening to look for when you're considering a place to purchase, a place to rent. Is does this building have

Low VOC Materials And Better Filtration

SPEAKER_01 34:01

these certifications? But Lou feel, and I I totally can appreciate Mark why you wanted to bring me in on this particular one is because Lou, I know it's tough to hear this stuff. I'm the same way. I hate compliments. I mean, I don't know how to react in a way that am I humble enough and all that, but you're you're a rare breed. It uh you're it you're you're an amazing person that seems to have a soul and care about the individual because I may maybe there's strategy in our naive mind brains that we haven't figured out. But what you're doing is bringing in that wellness factor, that longevity factor is it's not just that it looks pretty. And I've been looking at some of the photos online and they're beautiful apartments and whatnot. But at the end of the day, you're also talking about good health down the road. I want these people to feel good, to be good. And you're just you're against the you're against the current. And it's so rare. I don't know how to bottle up another loo and say, cool, here's another loo. Just follow these Fitwell lead programs and do extra loose stuff and go beyond that. Because that's what so many patients in our industry are suffering from. They they can't afford to purchase their own $500,000 plus dollar home. They're struggling with health, they have fatigue, they then they lost their job because they can't go to a job. And all, and then the the the insult to injury is that they can't afford a safe place for them to recover in. And in the world that we work in where chronic illness is is a lot of times affected by indoor air quality, they want that. And it's like, I know that this wasn't our original thing, Mark, but there's like, I just want to like market every one of Lou's buildings that fall in this category because never mind our why we're even here to talk about all the wonderful things he's doing. But I just found a solution for 10, 20 people as soon as they open up, Lou, because I'm sure you're full capacity. That's the other issue. But it's just amazing to see that, Lou, that you're doing all that great work and spending the money to go beyond. You don't have to do a MER 14 filter. We know that's not that's not the all seeing I. You didn't solve world peace with the MER 14 filter, but you helped. You're mindful with building products. You're mindful with lumberyard mold and what's coming in, inspecting them so that you're not starting your off on the wrong foot. You're doing so many things that we can't even get custom home builders to do where people are spending two million plus. We, in fact, we have whether there's consultants in our industry that specifically get paid to basically be a helicopter consultant and and fly over every single step of what that home builder's doing because they're not, they just don't get it. And maybe that's the thing, Mark. It seems like Lou gets it, and it's just such a rare breed. It's and it's such a special opportunity to talk to you about what you're doing and what you have out there available for everybody.

Dr. Mark Su 36:38

Yeah, even that part about the uh the the wood before it gets and goes into construction. I mean, we've had many of those conversations over the years. Our our colleagues, we talk about that all the time. Like, okay, we talk about is there a mole in the home? And then you kind of wonder about the behind the walls and the interstitial spaces, then you start wondering, like, oh, well, when they're building the house, it was like raining and you know the wood was all wet and what what happened to the house? Lou got that covered before they even built the house. And like Lou's like I I didn't hear him talk about that before until just now. I was like, oh my God, he's yeah, that's a it they're just to me, they're all daunting. Then you throw them all together and there's a huge compiler compilation of daunting tasks.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

And I don't know, I don't know how to pull it off, but well, he's like the organic version, and I Lou, I don't know you obviously that well, but is to say that Lou's like the version of the individual that we always want the builder to be. We talk about, we have these talking heads about make sure you do this, consider this, uh, and all these things. And Lou's rattling off those points. And it's like, so did you take that course that we didn't create, or you just I think 52, 50 years of experience uh probably had something to do with that to help, you know, him see what really works and what makes a difference. Does he want to be a slum lord? Uh excuse the expression, Lou, or does he want to be somebody that really cares about offering a higher quality product? And it's again, it's just so rare and it's above and beyond. And this Fitwell, I knew of it. I've heard people talk about it. In fact, I had a colleague bring it up to my attention about a month or two ago. So that's kind of interesting for me. But I never realized that Fitwell was so health and body focused. Like one of the certification requirements is to put a gym in there. That is so interesting to me. Uh, certainly something that I need to take a closer look up from larger project operations. So, Lou, Lou, thank you for telling us about that.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Yeah, yeah. Mike, in terms of Fitwell, they have a scoring system and you need to reach a certain score to get become certified. One, you don't necessarily have to have a gym in every building, but that if you did have a gym, that would give you a certain amount of points. And if you did have room darkening shades. So they recognize that not every building could potentially reach all of their criteria.

Pet Amenities Designed For Hygiene

SPEAKER_02 38:41

But if you reach reach a large majority of them or a certain level, then you can become certified. You know, I I appreciate the compliments and you know, they uh I think obviously it's the right thing to do for the residents, but I've I've also had in the back of my mind that people are becoming more conscious of their environment, of their quality, of lifestyle, of living. And I thought that building the buildings that I'm building now which seem to be overkill, and people have told me it's overkilled, you've overbuilt it. Uh and my certifications, I hang the plaques within the buildings. It it has made a difference in some cases, but the management team is still telling me that most people don't see it, but people are gradually picking up on it. So this whole bit about longevity mark that you're currently dealing with and my care quality, and I think we're I think as people become more and more sophisticated about their living environment and understanding of it, the more buildings that they're on building and other developers who are going down the fit well and uh lead certification, I think that will become more important as time goes on. Not really seeing it all that much, but I'm seeing it a little bit by bit, year by year, slightly more.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

I think you need to make that plaque a lot bigger uh in your lobby, Lou, because I I see for all the reasons you're already aware of, but I remember around 10, 12 years ago, I had a colleague of mine who's a doctor and uh runs a lab uh in New Jersey. And uh he said to me, you know, uh real smart guy, he goes, You really ought to start some sort of certification thing for like hotels or something like that, to like really something that just shows value. And that's the problem is everyone's doing the zombie looking at their phones when they're walking through the lobby to the elevator or wherever they're going, they're not paying attention. But there's something to be said about that. I mean, say I know that you see the trends through your eyes, and you have uh certainly way more experience in the years. We're biased. Everybody that knocks at my door, and I've worked with over 7,000 clients, uh the the the it's they're looking for, I shouldn't say every single one, but 75% of them are looking for that place that they can just have. We call it a mold sabbatical. There's different terms that are out there, but basically a place where they can feel safe. So if anything, Lou, I I can't wait to maybe have the opportunity, God willing, to sit down, have a cup of coffee with you or something like that. But I'll tell you what, we definitely need to get your information out there in terms of what you are doing, promoting you on this podcast, and also the buildings that are rated the way they are, because I'm not kidding. Like there's probably five or ten people that are just that I work with alone, and that's just me who are desperate for that type of environment. Your good environment's not a guarantee we get it, Lou. We work with that all the time, but your baseline is so much higher than the average

Central Hot Water And Water Savings

SPEAKER_01 41:41

apartment or hotel that it it curves the odds, right? And in a favorable way to say that this this house looks, this building home feels right. It seems like it was the process was done correctly or ideally or optimally. And by the way, they can do some sampling if they want to, just for their own peace of mind. But even just hearing what you've said, and I'm I'm I'm sure I mean there's a maintenance piece behind it too. Like you mentioned ERV and all these things. Somebody has to take care of those things. And I'm guessing there's a cost involved with all that that you are doing. I'm sure when people look at this through the dollar sign, it looks excessive. But when I look through it, I see a big heart sign and I see what you're doing that are is really helping other people out there. And it's it's it's kind of goosebum stuff for me, Lou, because it's rare to see that in today's environment.

Dr. Mark Su 42:26

Yeah, it's so cool because we talk, you know, on the clinical side, we talk constantly about is we're all bombarded all the time. Like we see this on social media all the time, too. It's all these toxins everywhere. Our environment is just full of toxins more and more every year, every decade, et cetera. It's just the progression of human humanity and progress, right? Human progress, quote unquote. And so, but I mean, man, like it as you were just saying there, Mike, if if a person's like, okay, I don't want I'm so overwhelmed. We talked about this multiple times on previous recordings about being fight or flight and overwhelmed and gaslit about all these, like, what about that toxin? What about that toxin? What about that? Are you drinking what about your water? What about your food? What about your air and all this stuff? It's like, what kind of how how beautiful is that just to go, okay, this living space right here, you can just check all those boxes and not have to think twice about it. Like, and maybe it's more expensive, but hey, the the effort, stress, and the money you're gonna have to put in otherwise to figure that stuff out on your own is multiple fold of that, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:19

That's what we hear. We hear it all the time is it's front-end cost versus back end costs. And Lou said something, you you said something, Mark, and I uh forgive me, I just don't want to forget. Uh Lou had made a comment alluding to this idea that you know you his colleagues or friends or whomever investors are saying, you're spending too much, you know, this is too much. And he sees this, he sees this awareness that people are becoming more aware and and and they're asking more questions. And Lou, I just got to say from the residential side, like I I work with homeowners around the globe. And and what I can tell you is you're absolutely right. And certainly driven by uh a combination of things, probably social media is a big contributor to that, is that even if they don't know the question that they should be asking, they're starting to throw darts. And eventually people will have to be accountable to those things. We're already seeing it. Mark knows uh we talk about different types of environmental sampling in my industry and how there was a time many years ago where the client just was like, Yeah, sure, whatever, do what you need to do. And now they're starting to question the validity of it and and forcing answers like what's the study. What's the research and that sort of thing? So good good on you, Lou. I'm one of your biggest fans by going against the grain because you're not looking at the short game, you're looking at the long game. And the long game is a bunch of people with phones and staring at you and using AI and saying, well, what about this? How do we know about that? It seems like Mark, it seems like Lou is wise to that very thing.

Dr. Mark Su 44:39

Well, if I can maybe on the last, just the last piece here, kind of geared geared towards you, Mike, and maybe you have something to add here as well, Lou. But so let's just speaking to an individual who might be listening who, okay, they're not living in New Before

Why Build Beyond Minimum Standards

Dr. Mark Su 44:51

Crossings. They don't live in the area. They're not talking about moving here, whatnot, right? And they're they're like, okay, so okay, if I'm if I'm, hey, I live in an apartment and I'm thinking about moving apartments and I need a cleaner space. So, okay, now I know, hey, I can look for a place that, hey, I can ask, do they have a Fitwell certification, right? I could, that's that's one action potential action point. Or do they have a lead certification? And granted, I I loved how you just delineated that. Thank you for me. Fitwell is kind of geared a little bit more towards like people health, lead more about environmental health and sustainability, et cetera. But okay, so now I have like an action point if you know if I'm that kind of person listening in. But what if uh what if someone's listening and they're, as you say, they're they own their own residential place or it's a condo owner or something like that, they're not looking to move, et cetera. What are is there anything that you heard from what Lou talked about as like a top three, maybe, yeah, top three considerations on what are things that I can do that are sort of in parallel with or extensions of what Lou talked about for a cleaner environment on my own?

SPEAKER_01 45:46

Yeah, I mean, it's it's if we're talking about someone who's in an existing building and and maybe their hands are tight already because they already signed that 12-month lease, that that's a different topic. But proactively, one of the things I loved right off the bat were the better filtration in the home and the low VOC building materials. I don't know that you'd be able to get a uh the owner, the builder, the management company to give you any information to make you feel good about that. But building good building product materials from a chemical exposure standpoint is a legitimate thing, especially in newer buildings that's as tight as they're being built today from an air leakage standpoint, not water leaks, but how well it ventilates and cut and infiltrates and exfiltrates and all that sort of thing. And then we're using crappier building materials on the whole, and then they're off-gassing formaldehyde and maybe perhaps a number of other chemical compounds, is is that we want to be mindful that does my building have use uh low VOC off-gassing products? Is there something that they promote? Oh, yeah, we buy when we built this, we bought products from this manufacturer, this line. Are they green guard certified? There's different certifications out there. I love the ventilation. Another tough one, Lou, I'm sure he would agree of how they could ask them, you know, do I have mechanical ventilation? Are you guys drawing in fresh air from the outside and delivering it into my home? Those are basic like questions to ask. I think when someone gets really curious and I deal with these mark on a regular basis, I consult with clients about maybe two or three times a month who are in that situation where they want me to kind of figure it out and see if they need to do any other ancillary things, like bringing in portable air filtration, purification, water quality, that sort of thing. But these are the sorts of low-hanging fruit things that you can do to just ask and see if you're in the place already. Those are things to ask if you're not in the place and they aren't lead certified, they aren't fit well certified, is ask them about what do they do to help promote using building products with a low

Practical Tips For Renters And Owners

SPEAKER_01 47:41

VOC signature. And are they bringing in mechanical ventilation, fresh air? If they look at you cross-eyed, that might be an indicator, unless you're working with the person they just hired a week ago, that maybe they don't have any of those products.

Dr. Mark Su 47:52

But if it's if if it's a person who's like living in a home already or a condo, whatever, and it's uh, you know, that there's not an opportunity to undo redo systems, then I hear you saying, yeah, cleaner air, big deal. We've talked about that before, certainly cleaner air, cleaner water, sure as well. But as far as the air goes, um, filters, right? So we can we can like maybe say that for that's a whole topic on its own for another time period.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

But yes, we can go podcast whatever deeper level, but big picture is portable. You're gonna get into conversations when we do deeper of like, oh, you can't use this MERV rating, or they don't want you to use this MERV rating. Lou hears it all the time because maybe it'll add too much resistance to the system. What I'm talking about is portable air filtration or purification systems that you can install in the home. And yeah, we can dive deeper next time. But these are little things you can do to significantly improve your indoor air quality. It's what I do in my own home. And we can see from a testing standpoint the numbers slam down low because we're doing these things.

Dr. Mark Su 48:48

Yeah, exactly. And this that's that's what um I wanted to sort of ask you to help with the take-home message here because Lou's got all these amazing things going on. But for people who aren't, you know, it's how do we make it applicable to a lot of other people? Well, yeah, think about this is what he's doing. Recognize that on a certification level and a recognition level, they're meeting all these standards and they matter. And so if you're in a place where, okay, how do you translate that into your own situation? Yeah, there's things you can do on your own in your own living space, whatever it may be, that in concept is mimicking that. And okay, you may not be able to measure everything exactly or it wasn't done from the start, but it's never too late. And there's ways of cleaning things up. And as we've talked about many times, it's not perfection over progress, it's progress over perfection, taking steps. Well said any steps mitigating is is it matters. It matters and it will help. It doesn't need to be it doesn't need to be the perfection that Lou's obtained.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Yeah, that's been one of the biggest uh views that I've gotten with on that very topic is progress over perfection. And yes, there are options for you. You don't need to look for a fit well or lead as the requirement for you to get better. Those are just ideal goals for you to look at, that there's many solutions. I'd also recommend for anybody going through that journey right now uh that if they are lost and they need some guidance or they have some, because everyone's got their own unique situation, right? Is is to consult with a professional indoor environmental professional, somebody like me, it doesn't have to be me, uh, but somebody like me to guide you. It'll save you so much time and money in the long run if you're lost. And many people are lost because we have too much information out there. Now you don't know who to trust. And so we need people who have the backing, the science, the certifications, and just the just the reputation for being reasonable. You and I don't like extreme. We uh we feel like it tends to be more tends to have more of a negative output to it than being a fulcrum of balance, offering health exposure, but realizing that we're not living in a world where the contaminants that we deal with on the day-to-day on the average is some sort of an emergency first responder fire type reaction. So there's a lot of resources, guys. Uh don't feel don't lose hope if your apartment place, your condo uh doesn't have a fit well or a lead certification. But boy, I tell you what, if you're looking to move and you have that opportunity, I'm sure Lou, if you don't mind me asking you real quick, do you know how consumers can find out if a building or buildings in their own. That's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

I I don't they may be at FitWell may maintain a directory and or lead may also maintain a directory all all buildings that uh that are in one's area. If not, I I honestly don't know.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Yeah, they have plenty of different drop-down tabs on the Fitwell website. I'm guessing that one of these are ways to get a hold of them and contact them because I mean Fitwell clearly, let's just let's just have real talk. Fitwell like leaders got they want to promote their work. They want to show you how powerful, how big, the movement, and all that. So you think there would be a resource page. I would spend time if you're listening and you are curious, go on Fitwell. And for those of you who are trying to figure out how to spell that, that's F-I-T-W-E-L dot org. That's where they're at.

Dr. Mark Su 51:54

There's not two L's.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

No, there's just one. And and uh and I'm gonna I'm gonna say that I thought the same thing as you did. And and lead, by the way, it's a little bit more uh it's the US Greenbuilding Council.org, which is the letters. So it's U S G, B as in Bravo, C as in Charlie.org slash lead. L-E-E-D. Those are the two sour resources that Lou's been talking about today. And if you're looking at commercial buildings that could you don't lead certify a residential home, but commercial buildings you do. Uh, same thing with Fitwell, is my understanding, Lou. Uh so look on there, see if you can find some resources to help you pinpoint a few options for you.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

I mean you could have office buildings uh also can be lead certified. So not just present. Yeah.

Dr. Mark Su 52:42

Really love this conversation, Lou. Really appreciate you uh spending just spending some time. And uh yeah, I think uh pretty sure I speak from Mike as well that we uh Yeah, I learned even more today from you about what's what you're about, especially. And uh yeah, we just really honor the the the sort of character. That's what it is, it's the character in the heart that you that you lead with in your life. And uh I'm sure everyone around you, not just the tenants in the apartments, but everyone in your life like benefits from you, no doubt. I had I know some of the longevity of the relationships you have

Directories Resources And Where To Find Them

Dr. Mark Su 53:11

and in your workspace and such and and um really amazing relationships, amazing, just amazing human being. And Mike, appreciate you um joining us again. You know, Lou, if if there's people look hearing this and they're in the North Shore of Mass or in the Merrimack Valley area looking to um, you know, interested in any of the any of the buildings, potentially uh residential buildings that you have um been involved in or created, like what's what's the best central hub website to find your collection of uh you know residential.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

Yeah, you could go to uh our website, MidGo Development Corp.

Dr. Mark Su 53:44

Okay, so M-I-N-C-O development corp C O R P dot com. Okay. So it'd be M-I-N-C-O developmentc-o-rp.com to find uh the collection of residential options for uh that Lou and Hassim have have created over time and are still creating now. Still a new creating. And then as as Mike said, if if if you're looking, as always, uh we've said before in other podcasts, but if you're looking for first of all just additional information specifically on as a doctor of homes for for Mike, he's got a his podcast as well, iepradio.com, and any kind of consulting needs that he can help you with, including virtual, doesn't need to be, as they we like to say, boots on the ground or in person. Uh Mike can be found at environmentalanalytics.net. And uh as always, as we said many times before, if you uh are in need or could benefit from a consultation on the clinical side, first time in a functional medicine capacity, or uh second uh sort of different angle or second opinion, um our team would be more than honored to and privileged to work with you as well. And you can find us at rootseekhealth.com. Rootseek is S-E-E-K Health.com.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

Hey Black, I I just want to correct one thing. The name of the comp my company is Minco Development Core. The website is minkocorp.com.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Yeah, I found I found that out. Thank you, Lou. I I went to type it in literally as you said it, uh, and it said not found, so I just got rid of the dot com and it fit it led me to it.

Dr. Mark Su 55:16

So min Minco Minko Core C O R P dot com, right? Yes, yeah. The name of the company is Minco Development Core. Yes. Okay. My n C O C O R P dot com.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

All right.

SPEAKER_02 55:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

Thank you. This is an indicator of just how busy Lou is, by the way. You need to go out and take a break, go golf, or do something.

Dr. Mark Su 55:35

All right, man. That uh really beautiful, beautiful stuff. Really appreciate it, guys. Thanks so much for yeah, I've learned even more. I I knew I would learn more from hearing uh Mike and Lou kind of ping off each other. So thanks so much, guys.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Thank you, Mark. Appreciate it. Thank you, Lou. Nice meeting you.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

Just the way you like